Byther Farm Gardening Podcast – Jane Kelly

Byther Farm Gardening Podcast – Jane Kelly. Season 2 Episode 4. Show notes.

I met Jane Kelly virtually, through the gardening community of YouTube several years ago. Since then we become firm friends and have met up in person on several occasions. Always at gardening shows! Jane has a lively YouTube channel and Facebook group and has written for Kitchen Garden magazine.

Listen to this podcast episode.

A transcript of the conversation between Liz Zorab and Jane Kelly is available below.

YouTube channel Jane’s Growing Garden

Jane’s Facebook group

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Gardening podcast with Jane Kelly transcipt

Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Byther Farm podcast. And today I am so pleased that I have been joined by my friend, Jane Kelly.

This episode was made possible through the generosity of our supporters on Patreon. If you’d like to see videos and hear podcasts before everyone else, become a supporter of Liz Zorab on Patreon to support our work here at Byther Farm.

Hello Jane.

Jane – Hello, how are you?

Liz – I’m good, thank you. Let’s put everything in context a bit. It’s about 7 o’clock on a Monday evening. We’ve got tea and wine, not in the same glass. One of us has tea, one of us has wine and we’re not going to say who’s got what.

Jane – I was going to say, guess who’s got what. Yes, we’re purely wholesome here. But it’s cold though, Liz.

Liz – It is very cold.

Jane – Well, yeah, yeah.

So we’re in the middle of January. And Jane and I actually recorded a podcast conversation last week, which went out on her YouTube channel. That was great fun. That was like you asked me 10 questions and I said, there’s going to be nothing that organized in our conversation.

Jane – There never is. That’s the best way though, I find. That’s the best way.

Liz – Jane and I met via the wonders of the garden community on YouTube. And Jane’s channel is called Jane’s Growing Garden. And if you haven’t found her before, I’ll leave links and everything in the information about this podcast. But Jane, let’s start by, can you explain a little bit where you are in the country? Let’s hear about where you are, what your climate’s like and let’s have a kind of picture, imagine, not where you are right at the moment, but generally.

No, so to give me a bit of context, I am actually probably as central as you can possibly be in, if not the UK, certainly in England, because I am in a place called Staffordshire. It’s known as the Midlands. We’re in the Midlands for that very reason. And it’s, yeah, it’s probably about as far away as you can get from the coast anywhere in the country. It’s, yeah, our nearest coast is, oh, a good old 60 miles away either way, I think.

But it’s, yeah, yeah, it’s nice, but Mike loves the coast, which is why we ended up here, I don’t know. So, yes, it is probably one you can’t have it if you go west and you can’t have it if you go east. But it’s beautiful. It’s not a very dramatic county to live in, but it’s rolling hills, it’s generally quite mild. It’s, we’re in zone 8B.

So I think that’s the US equivalent.

Jane – Yeah, that’s yeah. So the US equivalent, I think, would be the coastal regions of the US and we’re round about the same zone. So yeah, yeah, quite mild, mildish weather. I mean, I was saying that it’s cold. We are minus four outside at the moment, which to me is absolutely better, bitter! But for our US friends, that’s laughable.

It is, however, also context, it’s incredibly damp here. We live in an oceanic, temperate climate, so it’s always highly humid, which means that when it’s cold, it’s that kind of cold that it literally takes your breath away. And I was chatting to Lorella from Plan Bee Orchard, another YouTuber. She has lived both in Alaska and down on the Gulf Coast in America. And she said that it was actually colder when it got cold. It was colder down in the Gulf than it was in Alaska because it was more humid.

Jane – Really? You know, I’ve never considered that. So it’s the dampness in the air.

It makes it feel really cold. So obviously Alaska is colder in terms of when you look at degrees on the… Oh yeah. But the feel is if you’re in a very cold place and it’s dry cold, it doesn’t feel as cold as if it’s a wet cold.

I know just what you mean.

So we actually have lose-lose here. But there are advantages, there are advantages, aren’t there, Jane? We have the Gulf Stream brings in warm temperatures and it’s never really hot and it’s never really cold. Says the woman who spent the last two years going, god, it’s hot. And oh, I’m freezing.

But you know, though, that’s really interesting you say that because my parents used to go off to Tenerife every year and on like a yearly annual excursion and they’d come back and say, oh yes, it gets hot over there but it’s different. It’s a dry heat. And you put up with it. So whereas the temperatures could be that much hotter, it didn’t matter because again, like you were saying, when it’s hot here, you’ve got humidity as well. And I think that’s what’s sizzle.

Liz – Oh years ago so many many years ago I went to Florida in August. Very cheap to go to Florida in August.

Jane – Yeah. Is there a reason for that Liz?

Liz – There might be and it’s because we had 97, 98 and even 100% humidity as well as it being incredibly hot and it was just like breathing a sponge.

Jane – Oh, oh, good oranges, good for the oranges, you know, there’s swings and roundabouts wherever you go!

Liz – This is what I like about Jane, she will find the positive in almost everything.

Jane – You have got to, yeah, yeah. So yes, complaining about the cold, not as cold as a lot of places, but by heck, I took my dog out for a good long walk earlier on and I feel like my fingers are still cold. And that was that.

Liz – If you’re joining us from anywhere other than the UK, you’ll see how most people in the UK are kind of slightly obsessed with the weather. It is one of our main topics of conversation. Yes, it is. And mostly we moan about it. It’s funny. We have it. It’s too cold, it’s too wet, it’s too windy, and then suddenly it’s too hot. And somewhere in between that, there’s like a week where we go, this is quite nice, isn’t

And then after that week is gone, we completely deny it ever happened. And it’s always the case, I wouldn’t have, we haven’t had anything! Well, put it this way Liz. We’ve been talking for 10 minutes and we’re still talking about the weather. So there you go. We’re quite representative.

Liz – So one of the things we were chatting about the other day is how there are things that you wanted to learn. And it made me realize that how gardening practices change over time. So I thought I would talk to you about if you’d like to cast your mind back, if you’d like to share with us how long you’ve been gardening.

Ooh, okay, okay. Gardening.

I suspect it’s quite a long time.

Jane – Thanks, Liz. Yeah. Do you mean gardening as in general, or do you mean gardening on an allotment plot and growing vegetables.

Liz – Gardening, I mean, gardening.

Jane – Again, going back to living at home with my parents in the last century, it was, yeah, so in my teens, they were all very, very keen gardeners until very recently of being able to keep up their garden absolutely beautifully. So I was always surrounded by people who were, you know, they were always interested in making the garden nice and everything. And yeah, so we’re talking about, let me see, when they had their garden, they eventually allowed me to have a little spot of my own. And I grew radish, and it’s the only time I think I’ve ever grown decent radish.

And that must be, let me see now, that must be getting on for 50 years ago. And then, as I say, then growing up through my teens, that was just always the garden was just always a nice place to be. I didn’t really take too much interest in it until I moved away from home. And I suddenly realized that where I was living, didn’t have a garden. It had a paved back, it was a Victorian terrace, and a typically very long paved area as a backyard. And there was no green, and there were no trees. And for me, that was a shock because whenever I’d looked out of a window, not a huge grand garden, but I’d seen green and I’d seen trees.

And so my first thing was, we’ve got to do something about this. We’ve got to get pots out there, we’ve got to get bulbs in there. And I remember actually we took up some slabs. It was probably completely the wrong thing to do. And I do apologise with hindsight to the landlord, but we took up slabs along one side of the yard. And I can’t even remember what we put in there.

It must have probably just been the rough soil underneath. I put tulips in just to have something, to see something growing. And it’s only when you look back now, you think, why did I do that? I can’t imagine.

I’ll tell you exactly why you did that. It’s because you do what you can and if that’s the space you’ve got, that’s the space you’ll use.

Absolutely, yeah. And then it’s, but you know, it must have obviously been ingrained in me as a child that, you know, that’s what a garden should be green, or you should look out and you should see something grow. And from then, whenever we’ve had a space, we have, you know, made an area.

We moved into a flat and it was a very nice square backyard. And the first thing I thought was, oh, that’s nice and square. There was a building site around the corner and we didn’t take the building materials. But where they knocked down a few buildings, we certainly took some of the broken brick and things like that and we built a little retaining wall, filled it with whatever we could and just absolutely planted it really densely and that was beautiful.

But then children come along, life takes a bit of a turn, you’ve got other priorities and it’s only really the last, well it’s exactly the last eight years that I’ve actually been doing allotment gardening in the way that I am now. We’ve had a couple of allotments along the way but again it wasn’t the right time in you know in my life.

Liz – Have you always gardened organically?

Jane – Yes. No, I’m saying that apart from when I lived at home because my job was to go out and again these are all funny little memories you don’t think of until someone asks a specific question. My job was to get the sprayer, what do you call them? The light sprayer?

Oh yeah, you’re doing a really good pump-action sprayer. The pressure sprayer.

The pressure sprayer, yeah. And I would be the one to go out and spray the roses in mum and dad’s garden because they love their roses. I do remember really, really being very pleased with myself because there was a particular smell to whatever this chemical was. And you could see how you’d coated the whole rose because it would drip. It would just absolutely drip off and it was like a bit of a milky residue. And I find it really satisfying that I cover the whole rose.

And it’s only looking back now and thinking what on earth was in that spray. You know, and it’s, you know, I’ve spent about the last 20 years trying to get mum and dad not to use spray on their garden, but it worked. But it was part of the process.

Liz – My parents used the whole cacophony of lotions, potions, poisons and things. You know, we had creosote on the fence.

Jane – Oh. That stunk, didn’t it?

So creosote tar stuff on the fence.

Jane – I bet the fence is still standing, though.

Liz – Probably. And then, yes, the rose clear stuff to spray the roses. So not only for aphids, but then a different spray to deal with the black spot.

Jane – Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, a fungicide.

Liz – And then there were little blue pellets for the slugs everywhere.

Jane – Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, that’s been until very recently, hasn’t it? The blue pellets? People still have the pellets in their sheds. The ones that I don’t think they’re allowed to sell them anymore in the UK.

Liz – So they’re not allowed to sell them with whatever it was on it, but I think they can still sell the ferrous oxide ones, which are just iron. Have I got that right? Ferrous iron?

Jane – Yes. That’s good. Yeah.

Liz – So I think you can still get those. But I think people become much more conscious that if you feed a slug something that’s toxic, then you’re also poisoning anything that eats that slug.

Jane – Absolutely, absolutely. And again, looking back to our parents’ generations and generations before that, they were going on advice that they were given. And that’s what we all do. We all soak up advice that we were given And the advice was, yes, the priority is for you to get a good crop or some good flowers, you know. And they were in isolation, they were treated in isolation, they weren’t treated as part of the bigger picture of the garden, you know. The food chain, that wasn’t recognised in the same way, and like you’re just saying, the slug will affect the bird, will affect, you know, whatever it catches.

And it’s, we’ve now gained the recognition of that, that much more. I would hope, yes, I think we are, I think we are all generally.

Liz – Yeah, I think, I think there is, I think that change is really quite slow. And when you think Geoff Hamilton was introducing organic methods on Gardener’s World 40 years ago.

Jane – I was going to say, that’s scary, isn’t it? 40 years ago. Yeah, I know.

Liz – And yet there are still people who choose to garden using those chemicals.

Jane – Is it a generational thing, though? Is it just the case of it’s the older generations now?

No, I don’t think it is. You think it’s… So I talk to people who are in their early 30s and they are just like, you know, just get the weed killer out, just get the bug spray out.

Yeah, yeah.

And what can I spray on this?

Yeah, I know, I know. But yes, you do find yourself though, and it’s difficult to judge because you tend to talk to people who use the same practices as yourself. And in a way, it’s an echo chamber, isn’t it? You know, we’re all agreeing. And it’s when you hear someone outside that you think, oh, hold up. Everyone’s doing it for what they think is the right reason.

And it could be that in years to come, people are going to say, you know, this organic nonsense. It’s never going to work. It might be the stage where we’re all relying on our food so much that everything else is by the by, and we’ll have to concentrate on the singular isolated crops again. Let’s hope not.

So yeah, I think it is really interesting to see how practices have changed. I was looking on a Facebook group, so not your Facebook group, another one, I will say. And somebody was talking about getting ready for the next season, next growing season. They were saying, as soon as the frost has lifted, they will be double digging their garden. And I kind of went, argh! because the idea of digging, let alone double digging. I find incredible. But I know people who don’t. As you say, I mean, actually, most of my friends don’t dig.

Jane – It’s tradition. In a lot of ways, a lot of the people who are doing it will have learned from someone before them. And that’s the way you do things. And it’s that, it’s not…

Jane, actually, having said that, there is something really nice about looking at a garden that has just been neatly dug over. I think we can replicate that by putting a new layer of compost over it.

Jane- Yeah, on top.

Liz – But I’ve got to say, there have been times I’ve looked at people’s photographs of their neatly dug gardens and I’ve just thought, doesn’t that look nice? And then I go out into my garden and the jumble of chaos of, you know, weed seeds and everything. And it’s like, you know, actually, I like this too.

Jane – I know. Well, if we walk down the lane to the allotment, we’ve got quite a, I say quite a long, it’s like a little country lane going between allotments. So there’s allotments on either side. And it’s lovely because there’s hedges, maybe about five foot, six foot tall. But where you can see over the top, as you go down, you can have a good old nose into people’s allotments on either side. I would say roughly half have either been dug over or rotovated. And it’s when you see the rotovated, oh, they just look, they look spanking new. They really do. And then again, you get to ours at the end.

And I was up there yesterday. I hadn’t been for a few weeks, and there’s bits of cardboard down that haven’t been covered with any compost yet or any manure yet. The manure isn’t the same colour as the compost or the leaf mould. There’s all these different layers and it looks a bit of a mess, but it’s trying to see the bigger picture, isn’t it?

Liz – Yeah, absolutely. Now, I’m going to ask you if you don’t mind pausing just for two seconds.

I don’t mind at all.

Liz – Yeah, now I needed to go and get a biscuit to go with my cup of tea.

Well, you’ve got to get your priorities right, Liz. That’s, that’s, oh, you’ve given away who’s drinking the wine now.

Liz – Oh, oh, to go with my glass of wine.

Jane – You know, Liz, just going back to the saying about the digging and the rotavating, when we first took on the allotment we’re on at the moment, which is five years ago now, because it was in such a state, we rotavated. We actually bought a rotavator and for that very first, I was not even the season, that first, well, the first few months that we were there to get it in a tip-top order as we thought, we rotavated it and very shortly after that –

Liz – I think it’s a really good idea. Yeah. If you’ve got really compacted soil and you need to get a crop from it pretty quickly, then you do what you need to do. And that might be digging, it might be double digging, and it might be rotavating. Or it might just be laying down cardboard and growing, putting a really deep layer of compost on top. But I don’t think there’s any, I don’t have any beef with anyone doing whatever they need to do to prepare something.


It’s none of my business what they do. No, no.

And you’ve got to do what suits you. You know, if you’ve got a really, really clay soil, I would recommend 10 times out of 10 that you do no dig. But if you’ve got a nice viable soil, I don’t know, you have got to do what’s best for you and try not to, try things out, you know, try things out. You’ve got to see what works for you. I think it’s very difficult in this day and age.

In some ways, I was talking before about people going from advice that they were given at the time and you would have looked for advice and you might have gone to, I don’t know, a more experienced person, an older member of the family, the library. Whereas now we are inundated with advice from all sides, and it can be really, really difficult to know which way to go. And I think the best thing you can do with that is just try things out and go with what suits you. You know, don’t be afraid.

Liz – I think one of the other difficulties is there’s an awful lot of information on social media being shared by people who are still very new to gardening? So they’re sharing this shiny new idea and I’m so pleased that they are, but that information isn’t necessarily tried and tested. And sometimes it’s worth, you know, the best gardeners I’ve known are the people who’ve been gardening for ever and a day and go, oh yeah, I tried that for 25 years, it didn’t really work. So I’ll try something else for the next 15 years. I like that better.

That’s exactly it though, Liz. They’ve tried it and it hasn’t worked. They haven’t just said, oh no, I read in a book that that wouldn’t work, so I didn’t do it. They’ve tried it and I think that’s what people, especially when you’re starting out, people are a little bit frightened or can be a little bit frightened of doing something wrong, you know.

And it’s obviously your experience builds over time and you’ll pick bits up from different people, but unless you try it you won’t know. And what works for someone else might not necessarily work for you, but you won’t unless you give it a go. So I don’t know if I could grow anything in where you are in Wales, on the side of that mountain with the rain, the fact that you produce stuff, the fact that you go out when it’s cold and wet, I think hats off to you!

So I’ve been out in the garden this afternoon, I had a friend over. You know how it’s actually I think gardening is easier with two people. Not necessarily the same person your entire life, but when you’ve got friends come over and there’s sudden like there’s that rush of enthusiasm. Someone came over today and we have weeded half the veg beds so we’ve left all the stems of last year’s growth, so there’s still seeds for birds, there’s still places for insects to hide. But we’ve got rid of all the grass, all the couch grass, all the hairy bittercress, creeping buttercup, oh and a lot, I mean like a stupid amount of rose bay willow herb seedlings.

Oh, all right, okay.

Yeah, so beds now look, so they don’t look empty because they’ve got stuff in them and they’ve also got an awful lot of forget-me-not seedlings in them.

Jane – Oh, but they’re lovely though.

Liz – Yeah, well they will be when they’re not just… And it’s just that whole thing of just have some fresh air. It was bitterly cold. So it was great while the sun was out, but as soon as the sun went down it was like, oh!

Jane – But you’ve made it into more of a social occasion there, rather than a chore. It’s something that you’re sharing, whether your friend liked it or not, that’s a different matter. You won’t be seeing them again in a hurry! But no, but it does, it puts a different slant on it, doesn’t it?

Liz – It does, and do you know one of the things that I really like is that most of my gardening friends have also got a wonderfully well-developed sense of the ridiculous and sense of humour. And I think humour in the garden is a really important thing.

Jane – Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, in any walk of life, let’s face it, because things are rarely straightforward and especially sometimes that can be absolutely magnified in a garden, can’t it? You know.

Well, you kind of, I think there is that thing about you’ve got a choice, you can laugh or you can cry with most of it. One of my friends expresses her humour in her garden through the use of garden gnomes.

I love them!

Okay, so you’re either a gnome person or you’re not.

Oh yeah, yeah. There’s gnomes and there’s gnomes.

Liz – Oh, I’m no kinda gnome person. I’m a not-gmome, I’m not, I’m a mis-gnomer. No, no, no.

Jane – No, no, no. No gnomes.

Liz – No gnomes. But I know people do really like them and they’re fine.

Jane – Yeah, yeah. It’s, I get it, it’s adding your stamp of personality though, isn’t it? It’s, I will say, I will put my foot down. But it did make me laugh when I saw it in one of the bargain stores we have over here in the UK. It was either last year or the year before. There seemed to be a proliferation of like four foot gnomes in garishly bright colours. And I was thinking, come on now, who’s going to have them in their garden? But then I had to question myself because I thought, if that is going to make them enjoy their garden, you know, good, let them do what they want, we shouldn’t all have to conform to what we all want.

Liz – Absolutely, wouldn’t it be boring?

Jane – I know, I know.

Liz – Wouldn’t it be boring? And we’d all have to go round to each other’s houses and do weeding.

Jane – You say about the Rose Bay willow herb, just sorry going back to the weeds, we seem to every year, we have an absolute ridiculous amount of sycamore seedlings and they all seem to gather in the guttering for the polytunnel. And there are tens of thousands and can we find a sycamore tree near us? No, we can’t see one unless it’s disguised as something else. We can’t see one.

Liz – They’re travelling in the wind, some distance.

They must be. They must be. And gathering. They are so prolific, though.

Liz – Do you think they’re all waiting up there, just waiting for enough friends to come along so they can just land on your polytunnel?

I turn my back and they land all at once. Probably in that lovely little helicopter way that they do. You know, like something out of the great escape, no, not the great escape, but one of the war films where all the things come down.

But it’s, yeah, yeah, it is, it is very odd. Yes, we all have our weeds. But you’re creeping Buttercup, isn’t that meant to be a good sign? Because you can tell from your weeds what your soil is like.

Liz – Well, I’ve got to say, it’s just a nuisance because, you know, we’ve got a big garden, we’ve got, and the veg garden’s right next to, it’s in, it’s kind of dumped in the middle of a field. So we’ve got all sorts of weeds that we don’t necessarily want in amongst our plants. So I just have this kind of constant, I tow a really fine line between thinking, oh, I’ll just chop everything out, just go to scorched earth, or what usually happens, actually what always happens is I then get down on my hands and knees and hand weed it slowly.

There is something satisfying about that though isn’t there?

Liz – When it’s done, yes, yes, really, really.

Jane – But when you get, like you’re saying couch grass, when you get a couch grass weed, because they’re all flammable, they just break, the creeping buttercup, they just break and you know you’re not going to get the whole thing, but when you pull a weed out and it comes out really steadily and you know, you’re pretty darn sure you’ve got the whole thing. How good is that?

Oh no, that’s excellent.

I can’t believe about that. That’s just so nice. That’s so nice.

Liz – Next time that happens to me. I’ll take a photo of it and send it to you.

Jane – No, it’s okay. I’ll believe you. Oh dear.

Listen, you have been very busy recently. You have not only been gardening and doing family stuff, but you’ve started writing as well, haven’t you?

Jane – Oh, Liz, I have absolutely loved it. Yeah, I submitted an article to Kitchen Garden magazine, which I know it’s widely available in the UK, and it’s one of those magazines that I love because it’s down to earth. And I know that you with Amateur Gardening, Liz, have said the same about that. I think they’re very similar in that they show readers’ gardens, they show what real people put up within their garden, as opposed to maybe a more glossy type coffee table magazine. And I’ve had the privilege to write for them. I just submitted my fourth article to them last week.

You’ve got the writing bug. Yay!

Jane – I have. I have. But isn’t it wonderful, though, because even with videos, with me, they’re not scripted, I have a rough idea what I’m going to say. I usually don’t say it and end up going somewhere else, you know. And it’s not on a tangent.

But with the writing, it’s lovely because you can put it down, you go away and think about it, you come back, you can tweak it a bit, you can, you know, then I don’t know, I don’t know about you, Liz, but me, middle of the night, I think, oh, oh, I know, and it’s seeing it come together and that whole thing just, yeah, the whole picture comes together and that feeling when you’ve finished it of satisfaction is just, yeah, I have, I’ve got the bug, I really, really enjoy it. It’s lovely, you know.

Well, congratulations. I mean, the thing is, it’s one of those things you never know where it’s going to lead.

Jane – No, I know, I know. I mean, I don’t think I’ve got a book in me, Liz. I know you’ve got yours, but maybe, maybe not.

You might not, Jane.

I don’t know yet. No, I know, you know. But yeah, yeah, no, I don’t know. Yeah. I’m just saying no, yeah.

I genuinely love it. And I’m terrible at blowing my own trumpet, I’ll be honest. But it is something that I’m really proud of this last year.

Liz – I hope that phrase is known worldwide. It means that we’re not, we’re a bit too modest, we’re not very good at bragging about what we do. And Jane, you know, what you’ve been doing, both on YouTube and in your writing, but more importantly, on your plot and in your garden, that’s fantastic.

Yeah, yeah. You just get on with it, you know, and it’s, um, ultimately we garden for ourselves. You, I think we would both agree that, yes, we do the YouTube videos, but we would not just have chosen a random thing to do a YouTube video about. We do it about gardening because we love gardening. Yeah. And we love the lifestyle and we love everything that goes with it.

And I know with you with the permaculture and I love all that. I love seeing the bigger picture. It’s yeah, it’s all part of something. And hopefully that comes across in the videos and in what we do. Because I know there are there are channels out there where they’re clearly not, you know, they’ve thought about doing a YouTube channel before the gardening if you like.

And it doesn’t quite come across the same way. And I think that’s a sharp learning curve.

Liz – Jane, we’re going to have to wrap up because we’re about to run out of time. So I just want to say thank you so much for joining me.

Jane – It’s been an absolute pleasure. It always is. I think I’m sorry if I haven’t stuck to topic Liz but this is what happens when I end up talking to you, we go completely off and round the house.

Liz – It just means we’ll do it again another time. I’m gonna say cheers because I’ve got my cup of something and you’ve got your cup of something. You’ve still got some left.

Jane – I do very well.

Liz – So Jane’s Growing Garden is available on YouTube. You can find her on Facebook, Instagram and elsewhere. You can find her column in Kitchen Garden magazine. And Jane, thank you so much for being not only a great friend, but an absolutely wonderful guest on this podcast.

Jane – Thank you so much, Liz. That’s lovely.

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